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Author Topic: Mages listen up.  (Read 9964 times)
pyrosmancer
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« on: July 03, 2007, 12:42:19 pm »
Hello mages,

After we raided yesterday 02-07 on gruul the dragonkiller, i was verry disappointed in myself but defenetly by my class damage.
I saw all mages failing at there dps. For myself i knew what was wrong. I was frost.
And since that was my first 40/0/21 build raid my dps was still quite low. ( had to adjust myself to it again)
I usually am fire because fire is just the best dps for raiding.

But i also saw the other mages failing at doing damage as they normally should be doing.
I looked at there spec and then i knew where the problem was.
The specs you guys are using ain't the most powerfull onces for PvE raidings.

So know i'm going to post 2 builds witch i actually suspect you guys to use it.
As i said before i prefere you guys to be fire because it's simply the best DPS in raids.
BUT you have to focus more on your mana management.

Ok here are the builds I think are the best to raid with. (fire defenetly, tested it allot myself.)

Fire:
Sex-shop-pitesti

Frost:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=of0ic0fzxIziZZVA0coc0o

After this i want you to focus on getting gear.
Get your tailoring @ 375 and get yourself the following sets:

frost:
Shadow's Embrace set:
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=553

fire:
Wrath of Spellfire set:
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=552

both:
Spellstrike Infusion set:
http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=559

Allso do heroics to get the following items:
Badge items:

Shawl of Shifting Probabilities (25 Badges of Justice)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29369

Flametongue Seal (25 Badges of Justice)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29270

Sapphiron's Wing Bone (25 Badges of Justice)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29269

Ring of Cryptic Dreams (25 Badges of Justice)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29367

Icon of the Silver Crescent (41 Badges of Justice)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29370

Heroic Slave Pens:
Boots of Blasphemy
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29242

Quagmirran's Eye
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27683

Heroic Underbog:
The Black Stalk
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29350

Reputation items:
Stormcaller (exalted thrallmar)
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29155

Also Don't forget to Enchant your items you have.
It will give you allot of bonuses.
All these items you can do on your own order.

You can ALLWAYS ask me for suggestions.
Like i allways say: "There are not stupid questions, Whiping is stupid."

Well i hope you guys take this as a positief puls for you and our guild.
If you play with these builds you will see that your DPS will gain allot.
And if your not sure how to play one of these builds you can allways ask me.
You can allso discuse these builds with me offcourse i'm open to it.

After this all guys, i hope we can be proud at our class on a shiny good looking dps meter with all mages with good dps.

ps. You don't have to replace items if you have better ofcourse. but what i have posted are the basic (easy to get) items.
Don't think karazhan will gear you up ( that won't happen since there are only a few drops in kara for mages and are
verry wanted by ALL DPS CASTING classes). So it's hard to get.
So please gear yourself up (with help of the guild ofcourse) so the guild can go on with progressing.
And if we all do the good things we'll be in SSC before we know it.

GL with grinding and doing Heroics,

Klaas "Pyrosmancer" Vissering
Class officer of the mages.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 06:06:15 pm by pyrosmancer » Logged
Papalaz
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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2007, 09:45:38 pm »
Thats the build I build i think Im going to change to then.  Very similar, just with counterspell/mana shield tweak and a bit more +int to suit my gear and play style.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=oi0VczszxuzbZxxMzfMf0h

Comments Pyro?  Im sure you have some Smiley
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Kasuki
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2007, 10:58:52 pm »
Though i dont play mage anymore and hasnt since 60, winter's chill is a must in a frost build imho. But maybe thats just me, as said it was a while since i raided with mage and lots have changed aparently with mage dps according to old guildies, but i clearly remember doing rather  good dps as full frost back then, cant see why that should have changed all that much now. Also, as fights gets longer frost "improves" since its really hard to manage mana in longer fights where you might have to use healthpots instead of mana pots sometimes and the managems dont last all that long Smiley

/kasuki 
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pyrosmancer
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2007, 12:35:49 am »
papalaz about the build.

manashield and counterspell are free to choose thats all up to you what you prefere the most.
but you need the 2 points in AP. so lose 1 points in arcane mind an put one back in AP.

for the rest i'm ok with it.

Ok kasuki,

Winter chill is good but your improvement is only 15% damage. (after 5 succesfull aplies on it)
If you want to get winter chill you will lose Mind mastery, spell power, arcane power.
Witch will do in total more damage then winter chill will do.
This build is like the fire one about mana management and doing as mutch damage on
a mana efficient way.

This build might be without the winterchill but it will do more crits, allot higher crits than winterchill crit also.
winterchill build you will get 4k crits.(800-1000 dmg+ gear)
this build you'll get 4.8k crits. (800-1000 dmg+ gear)

Like is said i didn't test the frost as mutch as i did on fire. but with the experience of the fire build.
i'm about 99% sure this build is better then a build with winterchill.
To make things sure i'll investigate on some topguild's frost mages and see what they've got.

Thnx for the suggestions/questions.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 12:58:31 am by pyrosmancer » Logged
Papalaz
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2007, 02:29:41 pm »
Yeah i came to the same conclusion about my build even as i was actually respeccing, i took 4 points in arcane mind and put 2 in arcane potency

So hopefully large dps days ahead!!!   Grin
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elektra
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2007, 04:18:42 pm »
     I suppose we are all trying to do our best to get better items for our dmg,heroics such as crafted items and the bad thing is we are depending on drops and we must w8 for CDs and that means too much time...Anyway In gruul's lair last week the truth is that they were only 2 mages in the top 10 of dps.That was because the shadow priest,the rogues and the warlocks are better geared than the mages.(Warlocks btw dont need dmg.they have only 1 buff which giving to them +100 spell dmg.OMG nerf warlocks at last!!!:D)anyway about the talent builds...frost was always the best PvE spec because it is the most survival for mages.The truth is that he is survival but he luck at dps.To be frost and be good at dps you must have over than +950 dmg at least.I have currently +900 but i am working on it and i am talking about this build of frost : http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Rf0VZZVVGcofxsiqx
     The new crafted items they have lot of dmg that's true but they luck a lot in stats.look at the boots of frostweave set.+9 intelect!omg thats nothing!or the spellfire gloves +10 intelect and no stamina...so if u will spec arcane with arcane power you will run out of mana if the 1st minute...The gruuls fight and even better in the High King Maulgar that fights keeping too much and u should conserve mana.These fights are taking 6-7 min at least and you will be out of mana at the 3 min cause they have a lot of HP and a crit about 4000 is 1,5%.So arcane is not a solution.Arcane was and will be only for PvP.You only need Arcane Subtlety,Magic absorption and Arcane Concentration from arcane.
     The new PvE spec imo is this http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=kf0EZtgG0fcc0eRt.It has dmg as a fire spec and conserve mana.If i had the spellfire set i would spec that way.Pyroblast and blastwave are not for PvE.Dragon's Breath can save u from the mobs at kara that you must do aoe.Disoriend is imba.
     I like to hear some comments.I hope the links to work.TY for reading this;)
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Poltergeist
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2007, 04:38:27 pm »
elektra

Just wanted to add that DPS i much about playstyle, using AC trinket reset aggro at the right time.
I have played frost mages since iv started this game and +dmg id a important factor but the first mentioned uttely more important. I  had 8% more DPS than Crox in Heroics with my current build so dont say OMG-lock-rule-gief-+dmg. About mana-pool : if u go 40 arc build +Int is essential for both mana and spelldmg. If mages wanna top DPS i dont really reccomend Frostbuilds for a start cause ur so much more depended on maintain high DPS the whole fight timing CDs and treath reducement. AS for Firemages they have the opposite dilemma, they need to cool down their dps, much easier.
Oh, and about your frost build Smiley
How the hell are you going to damage a boss with those 13 points in FB/IMPNOVA/SHATTER/IMPCC Huh Huh  Just curious if i missed something about the game mechanism.

-Poltergeist(Etemmu)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 04:42:25 pm by Poltergeist » Logged
elektra
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2007, 05:35:04 pm »
Polter

That trinket u are using i think i should get it too Smiley.As for warlock that i was saying is that a warlock with blue/green geared can add more dmg that a same geared mage.Especially an afliction warlock can do more dmg than the mage in the long fights and i am mentioning these things about warlocks because pyro was disapointed about dps meter in gruuls lair last week.About the 13 "lost" points you cant put them anywhere else for spell dmg or something if someone want to spec frost,otherwise it helps in some thrash mobs at kara.
If i am wrong plz Make a build to see where u can put these talents to be more effective for the bosses as frost.
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pyrosmancer
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2007, 07:11:27 pm »
Elektra,

Well were do i start Tongue?
So mutch to say. well first off i don't give a fuck about warlocks.
I'm mage and officer of that so thats my focus, so stop the crap about the warlocks.
I don't know what your talking about dragonbreath but how are you goint to use that in a RAID.
so not trashmobs nor heroics. Like you are standing in front of gruul and use dreagonbreath :S.
yeah right so don't waist your points on that one.

About the mana efficiency mages have the easiest class to keep that in track.
Frost have loads of mana because of arcane interlect and fire have to slow there dps because of threat.
Mages also have evocation and mana embrals witch you have to use correctly. (use low rank mana embral when your 1.5k down your mana)
then use the one witch is needed when cd is off. then you allso can use pots so that shouldn't be a problem.

so now lets talk about your builds you linked.
First frost build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Rf0VZZVVGcofxsiqx

Frostbite?? 3 waisted points. why would you want to slow gruul down :S...
improved frost nova?? 2 waisted points. you can't frost gruul (nor other bosses)
Shatter?? 5 waisted points. first of all you can't freez a boss so the shatter bonus won't proc anyway.
improved cone of cold?? 3 waisted points. you ain't standing infront of gruul (nor other bosses)
                                 and cone of cold. first of all you'll probably die doing it. 2nd of all cone of cold ain't mana efficient @ all.
ice floes?? 2 waisted points. you won't use coldsnap nor the other spells twice anyway in the near futher.

Because of all there points witch are a waist for PvE RAIDING it isn't worth trying to go for the water elemental.
So i think i made my point clear that the build you linked is crap. At least for raiding it is.

Second the fire build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=kf0EZtgG0fcc0eRt.It
impact?? 1 waisted point. you can't stun a boss.
flame trowing  discusable i don't think you need the extra 6 yards sinds other classes don't either. again 2 points.
Improved fire blast?? 3 points waisted. you don't wanna use fire blast because it's not mana efficient so you don't
                             want to use it nor boost it.
molten fury?? 2 waisted points. they only are active when a boss is low hp. so 80% of the fight your a lvl 68
                   because you don't use the 2 points.

Dragon breath?? well i allready explained.

Again i think i have proven my point about your build.
Plz try to think of the builds like i just explained here above.
Going far in the fire tree is worth a try. i used it but it appears that 33/28 does allot more damage
because of the bigger crits more crits and more mana efficiency int he build.

O, Elektra don't take this all personal.
I'm talking global. i wasn't satisfied about all mages including myself.
We need to use one of these 2 builds to do damage.
About the gear. spellcloth you should ask for cooldowns.
Ettemu polter albaya all are spellcloth tailors. ask them for there cooldowns as well. (2 for 1 time mats)
Then if you want also the normal once, well ask the warlock's priests etc for there spellcloth cd as well.

have to eat Cheesy. hf replyng this post.
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elektra
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2007, 04:36:26 pm »
    M8 u cant make only build for bosses thats impossible.You must always put some talents somewhere to go on.In yours spec you have counterspell!that is not a waisted talent point?Or Arcane Focus Arcane impact?you will cast arcane explosion to the bosses or arcane blast?Because arcane blast is the spell that it's worthless on bosses and it burns your mana.Pyroblast u mean is for PvE?You will cast a 6 sec spell to a boss?Anyway I dont believe that any fire mage can survive at gruuls.Basically pyro u was frost at gruuls that time(full frost with elemental)and u was on the top 5 of dps.so i think if all mages was geared as you all the mages would be on top 10 at least.
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Poltergeist
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2007, 05:12:22 pm »
Elektra...


Spec like "Etemmu" then ur useful in raids and heroics, over and out. bunch of WOORDS here
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pyrosmancer
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2007, 05:29:25 pm »
Yes you can make builds for bosses.
I'm allways with a pvp spec but if we go gruul's lair i allways respec and respec back Tongue.

Counterspell you need it to go to the next talent tree. as well as arcane forus.
you don't use them @ a bossfight. and yes if you use it, it will be mana waisted.
Pyroblast ofcourse you use it in PVE. you have POM. every 2 or 3 (don't know cd by head) you have a
instant pyroblast. And pyromages easely survive at gruuls. They just need to make sure like everyone else has to
that they are 15yards away from everyone els. I wasn't full frost when i was @ gruul. i had the frost spec
i used in this orriginal post. My dps still sucked because i wasn't used to play NON pvp frost anymore Tongue.
And geared or not, i want people to use these 2 specs and we will see that the mages will have better dps
then they had last gruul run.

And please come on ventrilo if you want to keep discussing this. because you keep spamming NON-true taught comments.
Please first LOOK at the builds. start the talentbuilder and try to make this build as well. if you think you can improve it
tell me.

And please just try these builds!!!
You will notice (like papalaz allready did: "Pyro, how do you manage you threat? I keep critting like hell." that was his comment) at bosses
that you will have enormous ammount of crits (huge crits for fire from 5 to 8k pyroblasts) and you dps will go up.
For frost they will crit even more then they are used to plus the crit damage will be about 35% higher then they had before.

Quote from: Poltergeist on July 05, 2007, 05:12:22 pm
Elektra...


Spec like "Etemmu" then ur useful in raids and heroics, over and out. bunch of WOORDS here

My specs are PURE raid builds. Etemmu's build is raid/heroics build.

onces again elektra, my builds are RAID-bosses only build.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 05:31:14 pm by pyrosmancer » Logged
elektra
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2007, 05:44:51 pm »
   Ok it's kinda boring to discuss it over and over this so..Polter how is your spec at etemmu? You didn't linked it to us.Pyro how about this build http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=of0EcM0zxIziZZVA0cos?I prefer some mana shield for more protection instead of counterspell.Anyway make ur comment plz
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pyrosmancer
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2007, 06:10:37 pm »
i like your start with only 3 points in arcane focus. i changed it in the frost build as well now.
but you need to keep the rest like i did.
because you use 3 points to mutch in magic absorbsion wich you can better use in arcane meditation
plus on the frost side you chose arctic reach above iceblock??? wierd. put the point in iceblock plz.
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elektra
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2007, 06:21:20 pm »
    Hmm i put it there by mistake  Grin sorry i wanted to put it on iceblock.Ok i'll respec as soon as i can.
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